Matevž Ambrožič
Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to another edition of PharmaLinea’s podcast. I’m very happy to be joined here today by the one and only Blaž Gorjup, who is the chairman and founder of PharmaLinea. Hi, Blaž.
Blaž Gorjup
Hey, Matevž, very happy to be here.
Matevž Ambrožič
Today, we have a lot of interesting stuff to talk about, some more official, some more unofficial. We’re going to be starting with a whole story of how Blaž began this business, what the industry was like then, how he sees it today, and how it went basically with building up PharmaLinea and the whole Health Chain Group. What were in his view the key moments, the reasons for success. Maybe he’ll give us a five-step program to succeed in the industry, we’ll see, and then also what everybody wants to know is his journey around the world, when he was sailing recently across the globe, we’ll dive into a little bit of those moments as well. So, Blaž, if you’re ready, let’s start off with where it all began, so back in 2008, is that correct?
Blaž Gorjup
The official story or the unofficial one?
Matevž Ambrožič
The official one for the audience.
Blaž Gorjup
Because everybody comes up with what’s appropriate for the official one. The unofficial one … let’s say it started around 2008. We started working on some ingredients, quickly learned that just doing a commodity ingredient doesn’t really work, went from client to client not really knowing the industry, searching from scratch, traveling everywhere around Eastern Europe, which was for us Central and Eastern Europe, let’s say from Poland to Bulgaria, somewhere in that region. About 100 million people, 10 plus countries, a lot of time in the car traveling around, meeting new people, and from there … there was at some point, also at which I almost went to personal bankruptcy, because all my money was invested in the business. There was a decision that needed to be made: how do we go on from there? So, commodity ingredients obviously didn’t work, we didn’t have the capital, we didn’t have the volume. We came into contact with the specialty ingredients business, which at that point was really picking up in Western Europe and in the US was already very big, very strong, there were quite a few companies that were doing it big time. But for Central and Eastern Europe, because the market was very strong elsewhere, nobody really took particular attention to it. And we started with the first company, second company, third company, and our story was very simple. For the market size of 1/3 of the GDP of Germany, you need to cover approximately 10 countries, and when that presentation was done to ingredient manufacturers, they were very happy to give us distribution and to take that off their hands. It wasn’t particularly something of their focus at that point as well. So, we started off with that, went to client ABCD; the market was very fragmented at that point, if you can imagine. Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania … five countries, there was only one company which was top 10 in three out of five, so you had to work with 45 plus companies to get to approximately one-third of the GDP of Germany. The market potential…
Matevž Ambrožič
Can I interrupt you just over there? You entered the natural products industry or the supplement industry, the health industry, a couple of years before that, right? How did you even build up all those connections? Was it actually driving in your car from Bulgaria to Poland to Romania? How did that look like, knocking on doors, introducing yourself?
Blaž Gorjup
My business background was … I started off in IBM, so getting meetings for me was something very simple. You just said you were IBM, and hey, there’s a meeting, but going private, that’s another story for maybe another podcast why I did that. It was different, you’re nobody, no one, so there’s nothing else to do than knock on doors and just try to create a story, because at the end of the day, stories are what we’re buying and selling all day long, every day, everybody is. So I understood that part, but there was no big plan, no big strategic discussion, a vision that would be behind all this. It was the right time, right place, a lot of hard work. So you said what did we do, yeah, we just went from company A to company B, just being quite open and honest with what … when I say we it’s probably me and one or two other people that it all started with. It was spending two weeks in a car non-stop, going from company A to company B, actually knowing who the companies are in the industry, it was going to pharmacies, checking the labels of the products, making Excel sheets. Starting to contact, complete cold calling from scratch, not knowing anybody in the industry. Also just trying to get meetings, when you couldn’t get a meeting, you would even say that you have a meeting, and just show up there, and hopefully somebody would take time to meet up with you, and that actually did happen, so yeah, both on the supply side and on the buyer side we had quite a job to do.
Matevž Ambrožič
And maybe just to take us a little bit back, because you jumped straight into the industry, right, but your background, you mentioned your background in IBM and in education, if that matters at all? Political science, correct?
Blaž Gorjup
Correct.
Matevž Ambrožič
Why this industry? Just if you can cover that, just basic »how do you pick it«, was it a coincidence?
Blaž Gorjup
I’m a sailor, and there’s a known saying that I don’t know really how to … maybe I’m going to rephrase it. »Boats are not made to stay in the harbor.« So you need to go out and then with anybody who’s doing sailing, you also know that the wind never blows really from the right direction, or it blows too hard, or not enough, but you have two chances: one is staying in the harbor, the other one is going out and doing the best you can, and this is maybe an analogy to business as well. You cannot force the world’s circumstances, but you can do the best you can with what you get. And I guess my therapist would say that I had problems with Mommy and I had something to show to the world, and then, therefore, the grit came. So I think the number one thing was grit, just not knowing to take a »no« for an answer was the major part. But getting into the supplement business was completely by chance, by knowing somebody who introduced me to somebody, and at the end of the day, there is no business between companies, there’s always business between people.
Matevž Ambrožič
Well put, okay. And fast forwarding back to, we’re doing a bit of jumping here, sorry for the chronological mishap here, but fast forwarding to the ingredient distribution business, having now good connections both on the supply side and the selling side side with specialty ingredients, what happened from then on?
Blaž Gorjup
Well, the specialty business was quite hard. I mean, any specialty ingredients manufacturer understands very well what I’m talking about, it’s just that education takes time. There was, I remember, a company that said we would love to have something special, something unique, but also that the general public is aware of it, so it’s like a hidden gem that everybody knows about, but it’s also hidden.
So that’s the kind of … the »catch 22« of the specialty ingredients business. And we were struggling just to convey the value proposition of the specialty ingredients business also due to at that point, 2013, EFSA came in with the rules on what you’re allowed and not allowed to say in Europe. That was kind of a bummer in Europe, I remember going to Vitafoods at that point, in 2012 people were really bummed out and everyone was like: »Is this the end of the world?« But I always say when something goes bad, that probably is an opportunity. And at that point, it was also an opportunity, because in 2012, 2013 on EFSA, what you’re allowed to say, not allowed to say in Europe, that was something that was specific for Europe though, it created an opportunity. So a lot of companies pulled back, and said,»Okay, we’ll see what happens, « and at that point, we found some good partners who were saying,»Oh, this is an opportunity for us«. So any new regulations, anything severe happening in the market, is an opportunity to change market shares. So at that point, there was a story that we found a partner, actually two of them, in these countries, where they said, »Look, we really appreciate having these ingredients, we would love to launch,« and that was actually in 2013, »but we don’t want to deal with manufacturing, we’re a branding company, we’re a sales company, we’re a marketing company, this is what we do great, we educate doctors, we educate consumers, but we don’t want to deal with the hassle of manufacturing. « And at that point, with nothing to lose, we decided to deliver products.
Matevž Ambrožič
And this was roughly 2015, 14?
Blaž Gorjup
13.
Matevž Ambrožič
And you basically launched the brand PharmaLinea at Vitafoods? Was it the inaugural presentation?
Blaž Gorjup
So the first thing is, we launched the products with two partners almost at the same time. The products really picked up, and then in 2014, we saw that is a very positive trend, so we started offering those types of products to other potential partners in other countries. So not to have competition between themselves. And at that point also Toni, the CEO, joined the company. He had the brilliant idea, not mine unfortunately, always going to be his, but that’s a great thing about meeting and bringing new people on board, is they hopefully have better ideas than you do, and his idea was that B2B business is the same as B2C, because there’s people on the other side, so let’s make a brand out of it, and PharmaLinea was his idea. Let’s make a brand of private label products, clinically substantiated, let’s make it appealing, let’s make it clear, let’s make it transparent. And in 2015, we went to the market with it.
Matevž Ambrožič
And this was then worldwide, right?
Blaž Gorjup
I mean the good old »fake it till you make it« was the backbone of everything I did.
Matevž Ambrožič
So that’s step one already on the five-step program.
Blaž Gorjup
Yeah, yeah, fake it till you make it. The number one is grit, just work as hard as possible. It’s just nothing will ever … there is no other cure for that. So we said, »Okay, let’s go to Vitafoods, and let’s exhibit,« and at that point again, we just invested everything we had. So for a company, which was doing at that point about, I think, less than 2 million euros of turnover … well, not so long ago, but still completely different scale. We said, okay, we’re going to invest, it was close to 100.000 euros to Vitafoods and everything surrounding that, it’s quite an expense, and we said we’re going to go with a big booth, we’re going to look like a big company, we’re going to do everything proper. And instead of going for a nice 3×3 meters booth, we went for roughly I think it was 25 to 30 square meter booth with looking like the big guys. And at that point, we started going with the whole presentation of PharmaLinea clinically substantiated private label food supplements, very niche-oriented. We started going out, and we had very good feedback from first Vitafoods.
Matevž Ambrožič
So that particularly, you mentioned a nice segue, clinically supported private label food supplements, so three very specific categories at once. Only food supplements, only private label, only clinical supported. So selecting this triple niche, how exactly, why exactly, and then sticking to it throughout all those years, where there must have been … I know there have been thousands of temptations, opportunities to diverge from that, to go into different pathways, to be a classic contract manufacturer, doing custom formulations, to maybe developing outside of food supplements into food for special medical purposes, general food and beverage, or even OTC, a lot of opportunities, B2C, the temptations were many, right? The boat could sail out even more then, right? But you decided to keep the boat in that lane, which I suspect must have been hard.
Blaž Gorjup
There are two principles to it. One is that you’re not very credible in life when you’re saying I can do everything, so when you go to a doctor and they’re specialists in oncology, ophthalmology, they’re a specialist pediatrician as well, would you trust them?
Matevž Ambrožič
As well, at the same time? No, not really, no.
Blaž Gorjup
So when you’re a company doing anything, let’s say you’re doing whatever, these glasses, would you, if you do these glasses and you do also big bottles, and you do frames for the walls from glass, I guess that would be a big market to cover. So, the number one thing for us was to identify what we’re not. So very early, already in 2012, we had Matt Mayfield on board, who’s our board member, and he said, »You need to find out who you are by defining what you’re not.« So we said okay, what we’re not, and we said let’s just find out what, let’s just write down what we’re not doing, and we understood that we’re not doing commodities, we understood that we’re not doing anything outside of supplement business because it would stretch our boundaries, we understood that doing B2C is a completely different animal of its own, manufacturing ingredients is a completely different animal as well, so from saying what we’re not doing we came to what we are doing, and we were looking at the whole industry, and we’re looking where’s the future going, because we didn’t want to just be stuck with here and now, we’re also looking at now we have time, business started growing, let’s focus on the future. And we’re looking right now the industry is relatively not very well regulated in terms of quality, there’s a majority of products which are being sold are very much commoditized, and we said, okay, if we want to be successful in the future, let’s go the opposite way. So, let’s go high on quality, let’s invest into that, and let’s invest into very specific niche areas of supplements. And this is where it came out, yeah, so clinically substantiated private label food supplements, really, really focused. And when you say focused, you can imagine every salesperson that we have in the company comes out with numerous numerous numerous projects, we get about roughly 800 leads per year in the company, and vast majority of that we don’t partner with, because we need to understand that the value proposition fits both sides. But I guess I’m just going too deep into that, that would be another subject of a conversation. So yeah, we said let’s be there, let’s be in the niche, and we said look the world is big enough anyways, we were looking at the markets, the local markets, the Central and Eastern European at that point was about 2 billion roughly the market size, well global market size at that point I’m just talking rough numbers, was 100 billion, so we said okay, if our business is sustainable economically in Central and Eastern Europe, let’s go there, let’s go forward.
Matevž Ambrožič
Where did it go from from there, actually?
Blaž Gorjup
The easy thing, in theory, would be to go to Western Europe. Because higher pricing could be achieved there, it’s better purchasing power, more developed markets, whereas our idea was completely the opposite. We said, »We need to prove ourselves before we go to more developed markets,« and we said, »Where do we bring substantial value?« We did quite a bit of analysis, and we decided it’s going to be, let’s say Middle East, Southeast Asia. These are very demanding markets from a regulatory perspective – Europe, Western Europe, European Union, let’s be specific, is very simple in terms of regulatory, in terms of bringing the product to the market, whereas these countries have quite a big obstacle in terms of going to the market. We understood that we need to deliver the service. The markets in Western Europe at that point were still growing quite nicely, I mean they still are compared to other Industries today, but we saw that we’ll go there, and we understood that those are the markets where we have a competitive advantage. Going back to looking at what is our competitive advantage, and what our competitive advantage was – that we’re willing to work it out, we’re willing to work hard day and night, we’re willing to prove ourselves, and that was of value in those markets.
Matevž Ambrožič
And now it’s 40 or nearly 50 markets already. More or less?
Blaž Gorjup
Yeah, you know better than I do.
Matevž Ambrožič
Maybe I’m more updated than you are.
Blaž Gorjup
Yeah, it’s just mindboggling to … from where we started to where the company is now. It’s a global company, it’s present in so many different markets, there are challenges that nobody speaks about, there’s so many good people. Maybe we can talk about that because it’s what makes a company successful.
Matevž Ambrožič
Correct. I was going to ask you, we’ve been now roughly on this journey, to the end or where we are at now, and what were the key factors for success there? Because it could have gone wrong probably at many points. Maybe what were those points or what was us preventing from going wrong and how did we get here? What were the key reasons?
Blaž Gorjup
I mean long story short, when somebody asked me: it was 15 years of hard work, and then we succeeded overnight. Because it looks like an overnight success, but behind that, it is so much work, so many people actually giving themselves for the company. And really, really, really really working hard. Nobody talks about the days of not seeing your children, and not being there, and you cannot have it all. So the number one is just hard work, and there is nothing that will substitute that. If you’re starting from scratch, and if you don’t have capital behind you. The number two is people that you surround yourself with. At some point, it was quite funny because I did study political science but for some young mind reason I decided to not actually do my final exam, so I’m not a political scientist by profession, by education. And at some point, it was when we were like 20 or 30 people, I was the only one without a university degree in the company. So it’s getting the right people, and we were always looking for people who shared our passion to do something new, to do something great. We were an alternative, if you were a biochemist and you had the alternative of working for a big pharma company, or you’re going to create something on your own. We always said you have two jobs in this company, one is you have your daily operational job, and the other one is actually you need to develop your own area of expertise. Because it’s all growing, and as any growing company that requires the right people with the right attitude, and that is for sure the key.
Matevž Ambrožič
I can speak exactly to that, because you just said if you are a biochemist and this was pointing at me as well, because I am a biochemist, and I came exactly through this path -working before for a pharmaceutical giant, being a small part of a small wheel in a huge machine, where you don’t really know exactly what comes out of the machine, you’re so far removed from everything that happens, no real connection to strategy, unless you’re really, really high up, and it’s hard to be driven. You get a lot of propaganda in all the posters, »We’re doing good for the people …« There’s huge departments and even those people are far removed from what’s happening, but it’s hard to see the end goal, how you’re actually helping people, and when I came here this was exactly what drew me in. I could see the development of a product from beginning to actually it working in the market, people taking it, it being clinically proven to work, it’s selling also, and it’s infinitely more fulfilling. But, of course, it’s a specific kind of person, you have to be that person as well because it requires that much more work, at least at the stages where we were a couple of years ago. Not that I was in the really, really early stages, when you were traveling across strange countries, not strange countries but smaller markets. But even at that stage, when I came in, I mean at least I think you need, and this is what I would confirm from the brilliance of you and Toni in hiring, was getting people that had that little drive in their eyes, I guess.
Blaž Gorjup
Well let’s turn the story around, what did you apply for when you came?
Matevž Ambrožič
Yeah, so welcome to the podcast about Matevž.
Blaž Gorjup
Because you did not apply for marketing, right?
Matevž Ambrožič
I did not apply for marketing yes, correct, I applied for just another R&D job which would not have been an answer to my dilemma at all, and then coming into the interview, first thing you ever said to me was, of course, the classic bad cop routine of not even saying hi, just sitting down and going, »How many dogs are there in Ljubljana?«, right?
Blaž Gorjup
Correct. How many dogs are there?
Matevž Ambrožič
To this day, I think it’s what 20.000, 30.000?
Blaž Gorjup
It’s roughly 20.000 dogs in Ljubljana.
Matevž Ambrožič
If you’re in that ballpark, you get hired here.
Blaž Gorjup
No, it’s just the thought process and the attitude, the attitude is so important. But you did not apply for research, I mean you applied for research and in the middle of the conversation …
Matevž Ambrožič
You guys said, »Wait a second, we have something else for you,« then you guys went out and I was there sitting, not knowing what the hell is happening with my life, and it was taking a completely different turn, and here we are now.
Blaž Gorjup
For good, huh?
Matevž Ambrožič
Yeah, so that’s part of the brilliance as well, right? Seeing the right quality in people, I guess.
Blaž Gorjup
Yeah, it’s definitely important, it’s definitely out there, and there’s been … listening to people to other people, I think is also key. When I was still the CEO there was a lot of complaints about meetings taking too long, and having too many meetings … I still think, I’m still highly in regards to the value of having other people’s opinions and not sticking to your own mindsets and in your own little box and just the thought process, so every key decision was always thought through internally, externally, just trying to listen and trying to understand the big picture, and I think that brings the value. So also this company is very much organized, there’s a lot of autonomy in the decision-making process of everyone actually involved, and with Toni coming on board, that’s been added to the process as well. I think it’s just so important that it’s not just you come to your daily job. Do our ads still say that this is, if you’re coming here for just to do another job, don’t even apply?
Matevž Ambrožič
It’s a little bit nicely put, more nicely put, but …
Blaž Gorjup
It’s probably put like if you cherish that, if you understand that, what did we go with?
Matevž Ambrožič
If you want something that really drives you and motivates you and it’s not just to clock out the 8 hours, something like that.
Blaž Gorjup
If you understand that the majority of the time that you’re awake, you’re going to spend with us, and you value that, then you should come and apply. Because that’s the hard fact. The hard fact is whatever you do in life, the majority of your time awake will be spent there and you have basically two options. There’s a good podcast by Scott Galloway, Prof G, if somebody wants to listen to it, and he says, »Don’t do what you like to do, but do what you’re good at, because when you’re good at something, you’ll start liking it as well,« so maybe that’s also something that really stuck out with me. Don’t just try to … just this imagination, »Oh, I’m going to do something that I like in life,« which is probably the harder way to do it. The probably more sensible way to do it is try to find what you’re good at and then typically people, when they’re good at something, they start liking it as well.
Matevž Ambrožič
So that’s already, I think the fifth point in the five-step program? If we try to summarize.
Blaž Gorjup
There’s a five-step progam?
Matevž Ambrožič
Yeah, it was grit, was first. Then it was the »fake it till you make it«, hire the right people, listen to people and maybe this one goes somewhere in the beginning, but it was do what you’re good at and you will start liking it.
Blaž Gorjup
But I think that the number one factor is luck.
Matevž Ambrožič
Add luck to that.
Blaž Gorjup
The number one factor.
Matevž Ambrožič
Have luck, in general?
Blaž Gorjup
I mean it’s like lottery tickets, working hard will get you more lottery tickets to open, bringing good people into your life, and valuing them appropriately, well it’s like buying more lottery tickets. All these things is just buying more lottery tickets. Doesn’t mean that those lottery tickets will win big time, but the chance of success in the big lottery of life and business and life actually is that you do the right things and then they … it is what it is.
Matevž Ambrožič
So for somebody now perhaps listening to your story, being a bit inspired by it, always thinking about whether or not they should start their own business in the supplement industry, listening to this five-step program, everything’s sounding really clear and easy. Just follow the five steps. Is there … what would be your advice for them, apart from the five steps, of course? Taking into consideration the supplement industry as it is now. Tough one.
Blaž Gorjup
We talked about this one before. I mean I’ll start from this, it was way easier 15 years ago. The industry wasn’t as competitive, there was space for it, there was … the growth was higher, the ease of access was higher. I mean let’s look at the shelf space. Shelf spaces are as big as they are. If you’re doing SEO and you want to be there when somebody plugs in »food supplements,« you’re probably going to have a hard time being in the top five links on Google. So what are you going to do? My only, let’s say not even a suggestion or an idea would be: make sure you have a really good niche and make sure you really do understand the value proposition. When we develop products, my key question is always, »What value do we bring to consumer, to end consumer?« If we don’t have the answer to that, what value do we bring to end consumer, why would an end consumer in let’s say in Korea, in Vietnam, in Saudi Arabia, in Romania, in Poland, in Spain, in Brazil, in Colombia, and Mexico buy this product? What does it bring? If we don’t have an answer to that, there’s no specification or high quality or something something that will change that, so make sure that you do add value and that that value is understood also from the consumer side. And the best way to do it is to test it. I mean theoretically, theory is theory, life is something. In another lifetime I used to work with a company that did direct-to-consumer products and they first tested online, and they tested cross-selling, inbound, outbound calling, and before they went to TV with the same product, they said they had a 50/50 chance, even after all the testing they did, and they said … they were working in roughly 20 countries. And the CEO said to me, »Look, we have no idea why something works in one country and doesn’t work in another, we really don’t, we just try to do our best. We do analyze stuff, we are careful with what kind of products we do, we are process-oriented, but there’s still a segment of I don’t know.« It’s the same in any business. If I’m looking into a new business or something, or maybe even an investment, I’m looking from a perspective, »Okay, what value does it bring to consumer, to the user of this product or service?« If there is no clear answer or clear distinction to everything else on the market, then maybe it’s time to rethink.
Matevž Ambrožič
And touching upon or continuing on the thought of the industry changing in terms of crowdedness, competitiveness, anything else you would say stands out in comparison to when you began and the industry now? Where do you see it even evolving in the future? Very general question.
Blaž Gorjup
Yeah, very general question. It goes to a lot of other things with this »new era« of digital whatever, whether we at 4.0 or 5.0, I don’t know what today is, the right number. The number one problem of today is not lack of information, it’s too much information. There’s so much noise, so if you want to search for something, do something in life, there’s too much information. The problem is getting credible information and the right kind of information that will help you. That’s something that I’m actually struggling with, I don’t think I have a good answer to it, like how or what do you do about that.
Matevž Ambrožič
So, personally getting the right information or …?
Blaž Gorjup
No, just getting the right information through, I mean it’s … the market is very competitive, it’s very noisy, just how do you get the information to a consumer? Because for me it’s always about the consumer, it’s about the end user, the access to the end user is getting more and more limited. How are you going to access it? Through social media, you’re going to access them through Google search maybe, in the near term future through whatever chat GPT blah blah blah other AI tools, classic TV, what are the accesses that you have? We are I guess also lucky in a way, but this was actually thought through, that the one of the key issues for consumers and supplements is trust and credibility. So as I say to my 13-year-old when I catch him playing with phone when he shouldn’t be, I tell him, »Trust is very hard to build and very easy to destroy,« and it’s the same with brands and with consumers. Trust in supplements because it’s unlike whatever you’re wearing, it is something you’re actually putting in your mouth, you’re digesting, and it’s the same with … then you go to children, even more risky area, trust is even more important. So if trust is something in supplements which is important, it’s still an opportunity that the quality is something which is still extremely disappointing to me, but it presents an opportunity maybe for incomers.
Matevž Ambrožič
Do you feel like the issue of quality has not at all improved since the beginning, when you started or in negligible amount?
Blaž Gorjup
It has improved in the big brands, definitely. It’s night and day; the stability studies not only on the shelf life also on the active ingredients, and as the formulations are getting more complex that is more and more challenging. But as we see the results of some latest analyses that were done in the US market, especially on Amazon, it’s just heartbreaking. I could say it’s business, it’s just making money, … This is something that people actually digest. So I just don’t get how are you going to sleep in the middle of the night just making sure that, okay, I earned another buck or euro by selling a supplement which doesn’t actually have anything inside, doesn’t have an active or maybe even contains some dangerous substances. But we are different and I hope really that the regulations will change. There’s some work done on that, I know, in the US, there’s more conversation about that, Europe is trying to regulate itself to get out of business completely, but we’re fighting that in all areas, not just supplements.
Matevž Ambrožič
Europe is creating a lot of opportunities through the challenges.
Blaž Gorjup
A lot of opportunities, so I think, going back, quality is something which is still a big challenge for the industry. As I used to say, this industry … my mother is a doctor and at some point I said, »Mom, what’s this?« and she said, »Well this is some …« I’m not going to name the product for political correctness, actually, I’m going to name the product, it was a liposomal vitamin C, liquid form, stable, this was a couple of years ago, I said, »Mom we’re looking for stable liposomal vitamins, see for years now we tested quite a few suppliers and the shelf life,« I hope she doesn’t listen to this podcast, if she does, hey Mom. And it was not really stable beyond 3, 4 months. Nothing was, especially in liquid form. And I said, »Mom, there’s no way this is stable,« and she said, »What are you talking about, look it says here on the label.« My mom is a doctor with a PhD, she lectures at the university and at that point I was like, okay, we do have a challenge with relaying the message to the consumers. So it’s because education is something that matters. The threat here is always, it’s going to backfire, what if everybody looks the same, what if we all look like we’re dirty behind our fingernails, and we’re doing things a bit differently than they should have been done? So that’s a bit of a give and take that the whole supplementing industry would be, because there’s a lot of good companies, there’s a lot of good companies, there’s a lot of products which are out there, which are on the ingredient level, which are being really, really nicely developed, which are helpful to people, which are not just some marketing buff that’s going to make it. So there is a clear differentiation, but when I said when anybody asks me what to buy, I’m going to always answer them, »Go with a big brand, go with somebody who has something to lose.« Never ever, sorry guys if you’re doing that business, but never buy an online supplement from an unknown company just because it’s cheaper. Just, that’s for me, it’s a no-brainer. There might be good ones, but then let them prove themselves. But in general, as a general consumer, I’d say yeah, just just go with a known brand, that has a lot to lose.
Matevž Ambrožič
And I have a similar advice, what I say is, »Go to the pharmacy, for them to be a little bit of a filter of who they take in on their shelves, and ask for the most expensive thing there is over there.«
Blaž Gorjup
I also have a saying, »Don’t buy anything under …« depends on which market, in Europe, it would probably be 7 eur, because we understand how much things cost, if you want to have quality and how much that will go for. I was jibber-jabbering about how to access consumer. Doctors still are, doctors and pharmacist still are the credible, the who do you trust people in the industry. So if you can, go there, to the doctors, and a lot of our clients do that, that is the way to go forward, and that is also something Google and Facebook cannot limit. If you look at, in general, if you look at the recognition and the trust, if you look at all the governmental institutions, etc., or different professionals, doctors are still up there and pharmacists as well. And that goes back to our business model, our business model is PharmaLinea – clinically substantiated private label, and typically that goes through some kind of advice of a doctor or pharmacist.
Matevž Ambrožič
A bit outside of our scope of maybe exact expertise and more into guesswork, but you follow the development of AI and what do you feel about doctors and pharmacists, how long will they still be the communication point, the information point for the consumer before, or even diagnostics, stuff like that, before AI completely takes over and there’s no more human interaction over there, just a well taught AI that we put our trust in?
Blaž Gorjup
Can I get my crystal ball?
Matevž Ambrožič
Sure, you can take a drink, you can take a break.
Blaž Gorjup
Crystal ball and check what it says. AI is the unknown, it’s going to change things for sure. Nothing will, as far as I’m concerned, nothing will change human connection. There will be like … radiology is simple, if a doctor is more or less looking at pictures, the computer will do it better. Pediatricians, you’re going to tell me that AI is going to be substituting pediatricians when you have a three-year-old screaming on the chair, not letting be checked? I struggle with that. Urologist, I’m coming to those years, AI, really? I mean, health is, in the US, I was just listening today, is the biggest industry, and it’s been growing almost fourfold in the last couple of decades in terms of GDP. Will AI have an effect on doctors’ pharmacists’ work? For sure. Will it go fast? For sure not. Will it affect the supplement industry? For sure. Will it change? Yes. Will it change as fast as people think? No. I’m going to tell you why I think that. Personalized nutrition. There has been talk, tests trials. Is personalized nutrition going to be something for the supplement industry? Yeah, for sure. When? Not today. When? In the future. Yes, wow, brilliant. When? I have no real idea, but it’s the same with AI, it will be tested, will be tried. Would I invest into it today? No, probably not. Infrastructure? Yeah, if you’re looking from an investor’s point of view. Infrastructure for AI, for sure, but this is not a podcast about investments, is it?
Matevž Ambrožič
No, it’s not, not yet, we’ll see how it develops, but for now, no, it’s about you and since we’re on that topic, let’s go into lighter waters, no pun intended. We promised the listeners that we would talk about your trip around the world as well, so just to recap what we’re talking about, about, was it two or three years ago?
Blaž Gorjup
21.
Matevž Ambrožič
21, Blaž sailed off on a sabatical for about almost 2 years, was it? With breaks in between, sailing around the world, and uh he was…
Blaž Gorjup
Actually halfway around the world, with sailors it’s important, you know.
Matevž Ambrožič
Halfway, right. Sorry, sorry to other sailors.
Blaž Gorjup
They’ll be calling me like, »Why did you brag about it?«
Matevž Ambrožič
Okay. And you were all of a sudden gone from the Vitafoods, gone from the Supply Side West and we were getting questions, »Where is Blaž?« »Well, he’s sailing halfway around the world.« And then people light up with thousands of questions, can you just give us the highlights, the best bits, the worst bits, how do you even … what do you eat, for how long are you alone, what are the risks, do you have reception? The basics.
Blaž Gorjup
So, sailing around the world … my wife put it very nicely, she has a couple of analogies, funny ones in a bit cynical way, she quit her her job to become a cleaning lady, a cook, and a teacher 24/7. The other one was, it was extended Covid, being alone with your family in a small place, confined space 24/7 again … But going back to the more fun part, it was an unforgettable experience. We sailed, the idea came from a long time ago and Covid seemed like it presented an opportunity. I was dealing with personal issues, with let’s say depression around Covid, and it seemed like I wanted to run away almost. That kind of coincided with my planning to do the trip. We started off in Europe and basically we sailed to New Zealand, that was a long long story short. We took our kids out of school, did homeschooling, did everything together with them, good times, bad times, screaming, yelling, hugging, kissing, crying, everything super intensive, but in general my thought was, »Okay, this gives us a once in a lifetime opportunity, kids will never be this age again, they’ll grow up and they’ll just leave me alone,« thing and so with my wife, we said, »It’s now or never, we do it.« I had my thoughts about the company and I said, »Look, management team is there, they’re super reliable people, trustworthy people,« and I just said, »Look, there’s no better way to just confirm that in a way than to sail away.« Somebody asked me, »Oh, but you’re still controlling the company?« I said, »Look, I was away for two years and a half …« And it was the trust that I gave into you guys and it just paid off. Paid off in terms of just getting these acknowledgments from your side, from my side to you, to understand that the company is self-standing, it’s being run super well, and that gave me some freedom of having that choice to go. Sailing is something for very specific people. What you learn is that when you, especially when you come to remote places like Fiji, Fiji is almost exactly on the other side of the world and getting there has nothing to do with money. Most of the people there, they’re not wealthy, they’re kind of … Because getting there is sometimes very painful, you have to give up on your contacts, you have to give up on your family, social sphere, most of the people quit their jobs, sell their houses, and go. There’s no super yachts, there’s no fancy yachts in Fiji, because they’re all in whatever Cannes, Nice, I don’t know, Fort Lauderdale, I don’t really know where. But to get there it does challenge you in many ways and forms, I have to say it was, for me it was a life-changing experience in terms of getting to know myself, because it does give you a lot of time to think about what you want to do with life. And coming back for me was even more important, it was important for just deciding what do I want to do with the rest of my life. And I was struggling with, as many people are, with a bit of this question mark of what’s the meaning of life, what do I do with the rest of my life? And then especially when you’re … we were in picture paradise places, French Polynesia, atolls, when you’re the only boat in an atoll, which is uninhabited and it’s just spectacular. But I guess that can be a part of life, but that’s not whole life. So now, coming back, it’s … my answer is, »Okay, what do you want to do for the rest of your life?« is »I’m going to give back.« Many people helped me along the way, so this is very important for me in many ways and forms, not just financially, with my time because the only really limited thing in life is time, so I’m trying to do that. Going back to the fun part of sailing, you meet really great people around. The people who actually do make a decision to go and then sail to these really remote places. They had to make a decision, they had to leave stuff behind, people behind, and just meet the community which, just next week we’re meeting with some people, and it’s probably a lifetime kind of a bond. The other thing is kids. Kids completely change. They need to understand, my kids, my elder one was struggling with English, and now he just achieved the best in his school award for English because you get into this openness, you start … okay English is one thing, the other one is meeting unknown people, just engaging with them. My kids were, now it’s completely unlike them before we left, now they sit down in a hospital and there’s somebody next to them and they say, »Hey, hello, how are you doing, my name is.« And they would never do that before because it’s kind of … the two years did make a big impact on them. 90% of people try, or think, or build, or prepare, but they never leave. So the only thing to do is just make a decision. It will never be perfect, it will never be the way you planned it. One mistake I did, was, I over-planned, as I try to do with things in life, and I would say just maybe going more with the flow would be the thing to do. But the best thing and the best experience I had and we had in general together was when you go to remote places, people really, really living basic life, they are the happiest people in the world, and you’re like, »Wow, these people are smiling all the time,« and they come to you, »Do you need some help, do you need some food, do you want us to do something for you?« and like, wow, I mean, I’m top 1%, as in the West we all are, or most of us, and they’re the bottom 1%, and they’re smiling. I come back to Europe, people are not smiling, just like wow, they must have something figured out. And it’s something that still kind of draws me there, but it’s also some kind of pristine authenticity that I want to bring back here because every person, I think, has that in themselves and just a bit of help in that direction, just push it out of people, a bit more authentic smiles.
Matevž Ambrožič
All right, so maybe they have another five-step program of their own that we could look into in the next podcast and a different topic. Could be more steps, whatever but it’s a new topic, right?
Blaž Gorjup
Yeah.
Matevž Ambrožič
Okay. Thank you very much, Blaž, for sitting down with us.
Blaž Gorjup
Happy to do it.
Matevž Ambrožič
And see you next time as well and see you, the audience, ladies and gentlemen on our next podcast. Thank you for listening.
